Intention does matter … but its not the only thing that matters.
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We did talk about that.
This interview has been edited and condensed.
The Good Placefinale feels like it aired 100 years ago.
I didnt finish editing it until January because I took my own sweet time.
It does feel like a million years ago.
I mean, everything feels like a million years ago.
It has to be a choice.
If its not a choice, its not better than Earth.
Playing the perfectMaddengame was a silly way to say Jason has completed his journey.
Its part of being human.
Mary Steenburgen has a cameo as Michaels guitar instructor.
We owe our growth and our understanding of the world to our relationships with other people.
The more you play it, the better you get.
Once we had that idea, I was like, Well, then its got to be Mary.
Weve had a bunch of conversations about it.
I know that it has been, I would say, all-consuming for him and his writing staff.
How could it not be?
I dont 100 percent know what theyre planning to do.
I know theyre being incredibly thoughtful about it.
Its a tricky thing.
They want to address it more than anything, and theyre going to.
The show is not designed to be a vehicle for the intense and drama-filled discussion of social justice.
So if you suddenly make it that, its not going to work.
This isnt the show that I know.
So its a really dicey thing.
It feels very thematically relevant to what the whole show is about.Yeah, it does, doesnt it?
It is thematic, certainly.
The theme of the show is, Look, youre going to blow it sometimes.
Youre going to make mistakes.
So the question isnt how to avoid making mistakes.
The question is, once you make mistakes, how do you go about improving yourself?
In this case, those things she tweeted were, I dont know, eight, nine years ago.
So I knew her not as that person but the person who came after that.
That was like, Oh shit, I didnt even think about that.
Because Im not in a position of having to think about that automatically.
Thats not the way that anybody I know would ever operate.
Not to make this sound like its about cancel culture, because some people should be canceled.
My attitude was like, Yeah, it is.
I dont know what to tell you.
Thats the way it was for the entirety of American history until like five years ago.
So if theres an overcorrection, yeah, I dont know what to tell you.
People are having the same reaction, which is like, Well, now Im walking on eggshells.
You dont have to walk on eggshells.
You just have to treat people with a baseline of dignity and respect and compassion.
The people who tweeted or said or otherwise disseminated disrespectful language are now being called out for it.
And I just dont see why thats bad.
Ive spent five years on this show about moral philosophy, so I learned a lot about intention.
Because what she said was, It wasnt our intention.
But intention isnt the only thing that matters.
The other thing that matters is the image of a white person in blackface.
Some images are hurtful and awful to the point where they block out the sun.
Were in the moment where its like, lets just stop all that behavior.
Lets not use the 50 that cause people true pain and anguish.
Lets put those aside.
Youre trampling on my liberties, Mike, by asking me to do that.[Laughs.]
Its the thing that just wounds my soul so deeply.
Thats an enormous payoff for an incredibly small price.
I dont understand why anyone in the world doesnt make that trade.
Its a tiny, tiny, tiny request to just not be a total asshole.
Well, its that.
But I also think theres a common denominator in all these things.
Theres a denial of the payoff that youre describing.Thats a good point.
This is the result of that.
Its not quite as simple as I laid it out, obviously.
In fact, its not nearly as simple.
It breaks my heart that more people arent willing to make that deal.
I want to circle back to what you said about Tina Fey.
I agree that it was a great statement, but Im not sure the30 Rockepisodes should be taken down.
I feel like its erasing the fact that they ever happened.
To be totally honest, I dont quite know how I feel.
Its obvious the show is not saying in any way, shape, or form that blackface is acceptable.
That would certainly be one option.
It doesnt really matter.
This is what [Fey] was saying.
So I just want to get rid of it.
I see both sides of that point.
In things like this, there are no easy answers.
Everybody is just fumbling around trying as hard as we can to venture to do better.
No one is solving racism or police brutality or white supremacy through a TV show.
Thats not the way the world works.
Thats why I love Tinas statement.
I dont know if its right, but this is what I think is best.
Its impossible to have a conversation about even innocuous things right now.
Maybe that would have been good, I dont know.
Our ratings would have been higher.
