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To my eyes, there are two notable threads to unspool from this story.
The first has to do with Substacks trajectory.
It should be noted that this isnt Substacks first engagement with audio.
The second notable thread has to do with Booksmart Studios itself.
(Garfieldhas denied allegations of bullying.)
His new show is called wait for it Bully Pulpit.
Some context to note: Mike Vuolo, Booksmarts co-founder, has a long professional history with Garfield.
There is, of course, a lot to unpack here.
This interview has been condensed and edited for clarity and length.
Hot Pod: Lets start with the Substack deal.
How did that come about?
He didnt want to get stale, and he was thinking about stepping down as host this summer.
because I own the show Maybe theres a way we can bring it over here.
We said, You know, this is an opportunity to create a web connection right here at Substack.
They were immediately intrigued, and the more we talked about it, the more it made sense.
We had another conversation, and then another, and it snowballed from there.
HP: Did the plan to start a podcast web link predate the conversation with Substack?
We felt it was the right moment to take the chance and do it.
So when Substack called, everything just sort of came together at the right time.
Theyre on board with everything we want to do.
Theyve helped us out so much.
Were a two man team running this.
They say theyre going to get their engineering team working on this.
They want Substack to be a natural place for people to bring podcasts.
They dont want it to just be an afterthought.
HP: Are you able to speak more about the terms of the deal itself?
Schwartz: We dont want to go into specifics, but its a six-figure investment.
HP: Why launch as a connection?
Why not start small with one show, and expand from there?
That was the calculation, and I think it was the right calculation: Our numbers are going up.
So, hopefully, that hockey stick is just going to keep getting more vertical.
The skys the limit, but I think only if we put out a lot of content.
HP: Lets talk about Booksmart itself.
How would you describe what you want to do as a web connection?
People I thought were really smart.
Not necessarily academics, but they could be.
Because, to me, thats the essence, right?
Its the holy grail of learning, of feeling like youre getting something.
I knew John was that person, because Ive known him and worked with him for years.
John was the one who recommended we get in touch with Amna [Khalid, host ofBanished].
Youre one of the best column writers I know that Ive ever encountered.
And so I said, Theres no reason why you cant do that in audio form.
Vuolo: Bob and I already had a verbal agreement prior to me knowing anything about that.
I havent worked at WNYC in ten years.
I worked there for seven years.
I mean, everything is once you get close to it.
And I said, Okay, well, what is this about?
And he said, Ill tell you in a few days.
Let me give a shot to figure out whats going on.
Then it all happened.
He told me what he could.
I still feel that way.
Thats not who I am.
Thats not what I want to do.
Schwartz: I dont have a working relationship with Bob.
I know Bob through Mike, who had worked with him for years and vouched for him.
Like, I dont think so.
He seems like hes a good guy.
Weve worked with Bob now for the last couple of months.
Hes a lot of things: Hes passionate, hes cantankerous, hes a little bit crotchety.
Hes not a bully.
Its unfortunate that he was let go from WNYC under the circumstances.
But I think its ultimately going to be good for Booksmart.
HP: At the same time, though, his showiscalledBully Pulpit.
Feels like theres a little something on that title.
I think Bob wanted to kind of take ownership of that word and turn it into something different.
You know, Bob fancies himself a political progressive, and always felt a political kinship with Teddy Roosevelt.
That is, I think, what Bob thinks of when he thinks ofBully Pulpit.
A lot of people liked that.
But then once all this happened, he really wanted to take ownership of it.
Were getting that language finalized.
It goes into more detail about that.
HP: I want to go back to something you said earlier.
So, pending further information, youre comfortable continuing this relationship with Garfield.
Schwartz: Thats one of these questions where politicians respond, I dont like to speculate.
Hes been great to work with.
The show is great.
It would take a lot.
I guess anything is possible, but at this point, were pretty confident.
Mike, would you agree with that?
[laughs] In all honesty, thats what you do in relationships anyway, right?
We all have things we conceal.
I dont know what anybodys concealing.
So, as far as Im concerned, Bob was telling me the truth.
Ive never known Bob not to tell me the truth about anything.
Its never, ever been the case in our relationship.
So for me, I have no reason to not believe him now.
Like I said, I worked there [at WNYC] for seven years.
I was in meetings with Bob every day for seven years.
Did I witness him and other people on the show get upset and raise their voice?
It wasnt crazy where it could happen.
[But] it didnt happen frequently.
I probably raised my voice at times too.
Schwartz: Can I say something here?
This is an unrelated thing, but I wanted to talk about raising your voice.
I was at NPR a couple years ago, and we were doing some training.
A diversity training, or something like that.
And they said, What?
And they really didnt like that answer.
I dont know what it is.
I dont anticipate us breaking up the relationship because Bob likes to yell sometimes.
What he brings to the table is so much more than that.
HP: Lets end with this.
Tell me more about what you mean by that.
Schwartz: I go back a lot towhat Jon Stewart famously saidonCrossfireyears ago: Youre doing nothing for culture.
Youre opposite camps basically yelling at each other from your side.
I kind of wanted to take ownership of that word again.
But that, to me, has always been a lamentable thing.
The Substack page for Booksmart Studios can be foundhere.
you’re able to find full detailshere.
Also,Call Her Daddybegan its exclusive run on Spotify last week.
Clubhousehas officially moved out of beta, removing its waitlist system as part of the process.
Theres apparently a podcast coverage pusharound the Olympics by NBC.
Sports Illustratedwill now be making a slate of podcasts through iHeartMedia,off a newly announced partnership.
Speaking of WNYC: Tanzina Vega is leaving as host ofThe Takeaway.
Melissa Harris-Perry will be stepping in as interim host ofThe Takeaway.
But thats the outlier, or exception, that proves the rule.
Depending on the episode, it will be generating speech or randomly selecting different pieces of audio.
The end result of this is a state in which each episode constantly shifts on the 24-hour cycle.
When the podcast is essentially making itself through infinite variations, theres no limits on what you might do.
