An intergenerational conversation about what he meant and means.
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Mark Harris:I think I know the answer to that.
Probably the second time was seeing his name on the credits ofWomen in Loveas a screenwriter.
Novelist and screenwriter and scary provocateur who would call a novelFaggots.
Those were my first exposures to Larry.
MH:There was an alternate life that Larry Kramer could have and might have had.
Maybe he would have written plays anyway.
MH:That was a planted flag.
I dont think theres any circumstance under which he would have beenquiet.
It cost him so much.
Thats the other thing: He was really fighting for his life, metaphorically and literally.
JM:I think thats whats interesting for gay men of my generation.
I didnt see the first production ofThe Normal Heartin 1985 I think I was in college.
It does this almost impossible thing: It was about what was happening right then.
Its so hard for art to do that.
Thats a difficult accomplishment.
Its a complicated and pretty fantastically powerful play.
It was a bulletin from that moment.
I dont think it was trying to be timeless; I think it was trying to be timely.
In some ways, that probably makes it endure better.
Its this scream for people to pay attention.
I remember in college we had a big LGBT-U.S.-history survey course, and we didnt readThe Normal Heart.
MH:How did you feel about 1,112 and Counting when you read it?
So much listing of numbers.
It overwhelms you with statistics.
MH:And it can be repetitious.
Its not a rage that burns itself out; its a rage that somehow keeps refilling its own tank.
I think I read the essay fairly soon after it was first published, but I honestly dont know.
And the sort of inwardly directed fury, which, I dont know.
When I first read it, you sort of feel distant from it.
I guess the as we would say today sex-negative aspect of it doesnt register as hard.
The medical community is failing us.
Our political leaders are failing us.
And thats a pivot that a lot of people find really hard to take.
Its very out of fashion now, and it was not exactly in fashion then.
To be able to see that about himself.
MH:Right, right.
There are ways in whichThe Normal Heartflatters Ned, but also ways in which it doesnt.
Those mustve been really painful to write.
Or does he feel more like a historical figure to you?
The sense of infighting that people talk about falls away.
It becomes easy to kill the messenger, and he did not mind being the messenger.
JM:Did you have many personal interactions with Larry?
He and your husband, Tony Kushner, must have known each other.
MH:Yeah, they did.
My interactions with Larry were not complicated.
He didnt live the life he bargained for.
His follow-up toNormal Heartis calledThe Destiny of Me.
But what if it wasnt his destiny?
If it wasnt a destiny but just something he took on, that is even more incredible to me.
JM:And his history with Yale is fascinating.
He was of the generation that thought that kind of cut you out for leadership.
But I dont think that was his experience necessarily.
MH:The Everyone was gay version of history.
We can leave that for another time.
Even with him, it wasnt, My arguments deserve to be heard, so lets hash it out.
I think it was, My arguments deserve to win, so listen to me Im right.
JM:Like,I figured it out I have to lay it out for you.
MH:Theres no question that it cost him a great deal in terms of personal relationships.
I mean, thats a really tough question.
JM:Yeah, and I think later in his life, that became more of a hindrance.
Larry Kramer was turned into an icon even before his death.
MH:And someone whose anger is in a way cuddly, which really does him a disservice.
He was much smarter than that.
MH:Yeah, I guess theyve dialed it down to confrontational now.
And second, just as important, he would have known who to get it to.
That is a really important part of activism.
In that interview in theTimes,he talked about how he was working on another play about plagues.
But I just want to know what was on his mind about now.
MH:He was 84, and hed been in such frail health for a long time.
Obviously, that was not a secret.
Everything tried to kill him that could try, but its hard to believe that hes not around.
MH:Its also incredibly moving to me that he did not end up alone.
That he left behind a husband.
Thats a meaningful thing and I think an advance that at one time he probably would not have imagined.
Do you want the art you see to be activist?
Do you want to see moreNormal Hearts?
Politically provocative theater can end up being boring.
MH:Anger in itself isnt either a positive or a negative quality in art.
you’ve got the option to write a really angry, really bad play.
But I think you do want it to feel alive.
You want something that feels like a document of the moment.
ButThe Normal Heartfeels like a play that was written out of angerandin anger.
And usually that doesnt work, but forThe Normal Heart, it did.
Usually that is not a great formula for writing an enduring play.
JM:It has so much anger at the audience, at you in the audience.
Almost like, Why are you sitting here?
Why are you not madder?
Which I would love to see.
I mean, would you sayFairview?
MH:The original production forThe Normal Heartis something I think about.
Its one of those for which I wish I could travel back in time.
JM:What were the people saying to each other or under their breath as they left the theater?
Thats almost what I would love to know.
What do they say as theyre walking out to the street?
MH:I sawAngels in Americawhen it opened in 1993, which was long before I met Tony.
And you absolutely felt like you were seeing a play about now.
That has not been my experience anytime Ive seenThe Normal Heart.
