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He has been working there since 2010.
Well, its interesting to think about, he began.
I loved In the Air Tonight.
That was haunting and always grabbed me.
I grew to love Peter Gabriel and prefer his Genesis era.
I dont know how people do that.
I think hes incredibly talented.
I had a crush in high school who loved one particular Phil Collins song.
It never worked out with her, and I think that really clouded my Phil Collins judgment.
Thats my background with the band.
Oh my God, but I hate Sussudio.
That song drove me crazy.
You know who Phil Collins reminds me of?
Up to a certain point until he started dating Christie Brinkley I was onboard with Billy Joel.
And then he did Uptown Girl.
That was an awful song.
I hated that song, and then he totally lost me.
Thats how Phil Collins went for me after Sussudio.
I dont remember the music video specifically, but Im sure I saw it.
If it was after Sussudio, theres a fair chance I tried to ignore it.
I was aware of popular music at that point.
I was in a college fraternity with a bunch of music snobs.
Yeah, I had to have heard it first in that setting.
So by that logic, Im assuming youve never mentioned Jesus He Knows Me in a sermon.Never.
Im 100 percent sure Ive never addressed it.
Although Ive taken on thethemesof the song repeatedly.
What are some of those themes?Faith is an acknowledgment of so much we dont know.
Certainty has been conflated with faith, which I think is a mistake.
In the Bible, nobody was certain of anything.
Youre just trying to follow your sense of Gods call.
We take two steps forward and three steps back.
Certainty, to me, is the opposite of faith.
This slick minister pop in who has got all the answers, thats not a creation of the Gospel.
That doesnt reflect what Jesus was leading us toward.
Thats the ego taking center stage and using God for our own purposes.
Another element of this is the prosperity gospel, which you hear a lot of from Joel Osteen.
This whole theology that if you believe in Jesus, hes going to bless you with riches.
Jesus himself debunks that!
Theres a certain randomness to life.
I saw some of that in the music video.
Isnt there a little bit of a sexual undertone?
Oh, for sure.
Thats a funny line.
This song is a parody!
Weve tragically seen these charismatic televangelists, one after the other, and it continues today.
Thats part of the work we ministers have to do on our own souls.
Thats a pretty consistent story line over the years.
Theres a relationship between spirituality and sexuality; theres an intimacy.
You have to be aware of that line.
Youre dealing with people of great vulnerability, and that can be exploited just like anything else.
We have to use our power with humility and compassion, or else we can do some serious damage.
Thats part of the prophetic dimension of the song.
How effective is Phil at conveying his disdain for false prophets?I think hes very effective.
A lot of these creative people tend to attract those who are already conditioned to agree with them.
Would the song work with people who are in the throes of that intoxicating culture?
Would it cut through that and impact that in a transformative way?
Generally speaking, humor and parody are effective ways to get your point across.
Its nonthreatening enough that it can wash over somebody whos not ready to hear it.
I wonder how Phil Collins decided to do this song with Genesis and not for his solo stuff.
Its like Neil Young: Hed do Crazy Horse, and then he would do his own stuff.
I want to know if he wrote the song with Genesisin mind.
Its interesting to me to think about.
He was living in both places and knew where to go with his songs.
What was the most striking visual image in the music video for you?Its very superficial.
Im color-blind, but it felt like the colors were unnatural.
I think this is the funniest Genesis song.
Whats that old saying?
God created us in his image, and we return the favor.Basically:Whatever you want, pastor.
Heres how you gotta live.
Heres the three steps you need.I think theres something strangely comforting in a certain personality pop in like that.
I see this modeled in Jesus.
Hes trying to invite people to exercise those muscles for themselves.
Ultimately, the leader should lead by example.
Im personally attracted to authenticity and integrity.
You dont find any of that in the music video.
Phil Collins plays a leader who lacks integrity.
Theres a gift in that being able to reach the masses in a way that is accessible.
I do think God works through all of us in different ways.
Everyone has their gifts.
The other thing is theres so much uncertainty in life.
But we feel a need for certainty.
A lot of adults are not maturing these days.
Theres no clear sense of right and wrong.
We need that to get started on a journey.
But we all start there, right?
That can be attractive at particular times in our lives and levels of development.
We have to begin to take some of that and pay attention to our own life experience.
We have to check what were being taught with reality as we understand and perceive it.
I think it can really work for a while in all of our lives until it doesnt.
Its the crab-bucket syndrome where youre trying to get out but everyones pulling you in.
Deeper levels of consciousness arent going to be supported in communities like the one in Genesis music video.
Id stay connected with them.
It would only become problematic if the person tried to bring that whole theology back into my church.
Then Id alter my stance.
I mean, Ive listened to Joel Osteen in the past, but it has been several years now.
Id reiterate that material blessings arent the real blessings God wants to give us.
He feels it almost seems prescient while at the same time already inappropriate.
Do you agree?Yeah, I can see that.
Its the now and the not yet.
Theres something universal there that will always be part of the mix.
It foreshadows that these televangelists are always learning, too.
They learn, and they have to change and evolve to maintain their audiences.
Do you feel like the song hits differently in 2021 than it did in 1991?
There was a long movement toward fundamentalism as defined by conservative Evangelicals in the early 90s.
I had to work through that.
I saw things differently, and that didnt intuitively resonate for me.
It remains seductive and tempting.
More of a progressive response that is gaining traction in some ways.
And culturally, theres more of a hunger for authenticity than there was 30 years ago.
I think millennials are less attracted to that.Authenticityis a real buzzword these days.
Do you personally like the song?
Is this something youd jam to in your free time?I dont like the song.
Its probably the production.
Give me a guitar and a Bob Dylan voice, and Ill be happy.
But because I respect you and your work, Im going to take another look at it.
Im too quick to judge.
Phil Collins I think I like him more than I realize.
Maybe Im still wounded by this high-school girlfriend.
Ihavequoted In Your Eyes by Peter Gabriel.
Ive used Peter Gabriel in memorial services and quoted the song in sermons.
So Im a Genesis fan at heart but was devastated when Peter left the band.
